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Consciousness for Robots
the R2D2 Thread ...

- Mountain Man & Others

Web Publication by Mountain Man Graphics, Australia in the Southern Summer of 1995

Consciousness for Robots {R2D2 Thread}

Date: Mon, 25 Dec 95 11:37:01 -0800
From: GGARVE@corp.atl.com (Granite Garver)
Newsgroups: alt.consciousness,sci.physics,sci.cognitive,alt.sci.new-theories
References: <4b0n29$674@kettle.magna.com.au> <4b5759$pta@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4b8hvv$rv@kettle.magna.com.au> <1995Dec21.235414.11257@atl.com>
Subject: Re: Consciousness for Robots (R2D2 thread) ......

GGARVE@corp.atl.com (Granite Garver) wrote:

>In article <4b8hvv$rv@kettle.magna.com.au>, prfbrown@magna.com.au says...
>>eterretur@aol.com (EterRetur) wrote:
>>>"Mountain Man" Brown finished his message about "R2D2s" not having a
>>>conscience because they are not part of sunshine-driven natural evolution.
>>>Yet, his signature is: " "All Things are Connected" Chief Seattle, 1854.
>>>The "functionalists" say that a robotic computing network would have as
>>>much connection to the natural evolution of intelligence as anything else in Nature.
>>There is no doubt in my mind that it was the mastery of the "Eternal Flame"
>> which gave rise to logevity of reflective consciousness.
>>This may be another thread, but neverthess as ancient man burnt the fire through the long and ancient night,
>>this was the first evolutionary action which could be identified above the kangaroos and emus.
>>Since then, what else has been "mastered" ....
>>The Wheel, Crops, Boats, Writing, Publications, A Structure Cartesian Intellectual system,
>>the Industrial machines, the Internal Combustion Engine, the Motor Car,
>>Big Metal Birds, Shuttles and computer systems and networks .....
>>To the extent that all these things are now "part of nature" in their being existent
>>in the "Outer World" of any terrestrial observer cannot be negated.
>>However, in seeking the natural roots of consciousness, these man-made things
>>must be set aside, because thay are simply Cartesian divsersions ...
>>>I, however (no doubt foolishly bucolic, arcadian, and romantic), fear that
>>>extra-human intelligence, maybe even a sort of consciousness, that could
>>>exist w/o a deep feeling of connectedness: a fellow-creature soulness. "I
>>>am thou" "Thou art that" sort of thing. Intelligence--complex
>>>calculation--lacks emphathy or humility.
>>At the base level, within modern man exists the ancient man.
>>All that has been said by the wise ones of Ages past still stands.
>>Our intellectual inventions are merely "toys for the boys" ....
>>Certainly they achieve (closed and preset) goals which may be very valuable
>>in commercial terms, but if any are serious about the pursuit of consciousness
>>then such terms must be left where they are found ..... they are not fundamental.
>>(And by fundamental - I mean fundamental to Natural SURVIVAL )
>>It may well be possible to program survival re-actions into a computer network.
>>But is this survival close enough to natural survival .....
>>AIR: Better take another breath.....
>>WATER: When thirst overcomes the will ....
>>EARTH: When hunger overcomes the will if one is fortunate enough ....
>>FIRE: The Flame of Consciousness - the Pythagorean Fire at the center (The Sun)
>>NOTE: FIRE was not understood by the ancients due to their *ingrained* sense
>>of geocentricity.... furthermore, this mis-understanding continues strong today,
>>despite the fact we are taught of heliocentricity ...
>>Thus the four ancient elements can be seen to provide an intuitive description
>>of natural survival ... and this is a complex eco-systemic matrix ...
>>>Of course, given the right sort of seductive android, I'm sure I could be
>>>lured into a rapid overthrow of my present viewpoint!
>>FIRE has two aspects .... the heat/vibration at the lower end, and LIGHT at the upper end.
>>In the lower sense this is simply heat - required for survival.
>>Refinement of this sense I would observe has lead to HEARING.
>>From the ear ... through the "heart" - ancient mind - assisted by the (new) mind.
>>In the lower sense light simply makes manifest all spacial objects.
>>The faculy of mind - the organ of sight = the eye.
>>The theory of relativity - the constancy of light.
>>All the ancient elements occur on earth in the terrestrial environment.
>>However, the source for FIRE is in the sun ...
>>It is "cosmic" .... and permeates the other terrestrial based elements.
>>It *IS* a different state of matter (ie: a star)
>>Thus do I postulate that the root of consciousness cannot be "geocentric".
>>It somehow works on the principle of "heliocentricity" ....
>>And is intimately associated with light - the higher aspect of the
>>ancient element of fire.
>>Evolution is then discovery of fire - first in the outer world on earth,
>>then in the cosmos, then of the fire within us all - our inner sun - soul - sol.
>>And what do I do with the Periodic Table of Elements, now that the 4 ancient elements
>>are back? This is the intellectual description of nature ... the analytical
>>cartesian closed experimental system type of classification.
>>I am attempting to engineer such a system as would be understood *both*
>>by the faculty of the mind *and* the heart ......
>>And the ancient elements are just as good as any other natural classification.
>>And in my observation serve far better at the fundamental levels .....
>>Does anyone strenuously object???
>>Fred Flintstone.
>>SeasonsGreetings: From the OutBack Scrub and the Surf of OZ .......
>Well Fred, you are definately a man with a mission. I enjoyed reading your
>post. I have a question concerning your statements about heliocentricity
>and the aspect of consciousness. Do you believe that the Sun through its
>almost alive and constantly changing chemical/mass composition profile has
>a sort of consciousness of its own?

YES. Quite definitely ....

(1) If we "use" the traditional Input/Output algoriths of any system then it is only the "sunshine" which has been responsible for the input since "the beginning" (whether this was 4.5 billion years?).

(2) For those who would doubt this assertion then on the basis that there exists such substance as "inanimate matter", then where is such substance? Even a rock in nature has an eco-system attached to it.

(3) To the postulate that the energy giver and light provider for the entire planet (the sun) is devoid of even the smallest amount of "consciousness" attributable to the lowliest terrestrial being, I would have to strongly disgree ...

>Or maybe is somehow at the heart of our own?

YES - I observe that there appears to be a "self" or "soul" (Sol?) at the very "metaphysical center" of every living being.

All life emulates the sun at a fundamental level: the self/the soul.
The discriminating self - the eternal soul.
It appears that all life has a "spark at its center" .... yes.

Further, I further observe this "celestial metaphysics" is consistent
at a less cosmic and more "terrestrial" environment.

IE: Life also has more "terrestrial" faculties of heart and mind. There exists an "informational mapping" which relates the heart and the earth, and the mind and the moon.

For within this "binary system" is the duality of all experience. Feelings and thoughts - "consciousness" ......................... All living beings have a self and a heart and a mind to varying degrees. Not just man.

>If we were born say, underground, and never saw the light of our
>sun, or let its rays "permeate our bodies" would consciousness somehow leave
>us or manefest itself in some other way?

This sounds like those epic stories of the dwarven folk of olde ;-)
I am not sure how to comment ....
There are accounts of sunlight deprivation, but I am more concerned
with the "eco-systemic engine" ... and not its exceptions.

> Also, if consciousness is also "heart driven" what does this say for people who have transplants?
> Do they carry the consciousness of another person? Or some relevent aspect of it?

Substitution of critical organs is "new under the sun" .... ;-)
This question I could not in all honesty answer.
It would be interesting to ask the transplantees this question.
Perhaps someone has further info ...

It appears as if substitution permits life to continue as it were ...

What I am trying to say is that observed consciousness appears to have a configuration of self, heart and mind. Our cosmic environment is observed to have a configuration of sun, earth and moon (respectively). And I am speaking metaphysically - not physically.

Where is the mind?
Where is the heart?
Where is the soul?
These questions I do not purport to answer.

I am only observing that, wherever they happen to be, their evolution
and "mechanics" appear to have a remarkable metaphysical relativity
to the celestial or cosmic environment.

> ....<..> .. I may be pouring syrup on my last statement
>here and eating it for breakfast(waffle). How about it?
> Peace, G.

No matter in what way one greets the day and breaks the fast, we may at least be thankful for being alive ...

Would an R2D2 be thankful for operational circuitry?
I suppose it would depend upon the programmer to enable a robotic
expression of thankfulness - perhaps there exists a CCITT standard??

Peace man.


Mountain Man's UseNet Archive

Consciousness for Robots
the R2D2 Thread ...

- Mountain Man & Others

Web Publication by Mountain Man Graphics, Australia in the Southern Summer of 1995